The 250 has:

about 30 more pounds

33 mm forks rather than 31

sturdier triple clamps (note that Honda made an optional fork brace for the 125-evidence of sloppiness here)

a more trials-like steering geometry (125 has same triple clamps as SL series)

an aluminum fuel tank (they may dent and they may leak but they never rust)

a lighting coil (only TL125S models came with one)

a factory installed chain tensioner

a sturdier swing arm with proper bushings, not rubber flexy things

shocks with 11mm shafts, not 8

thicker spokes

a detachable skid plate

no need to fold the right peg to kickstart

about 3 inches more wheelbase (52 vs 49 inches)

Sammy Miller design. 'Nuff said.

As to the tl250 engine being greatly different than its XL brothers, I think not. Gears are mostly different, but they last forever at the output mandated by its 24mm carb. Cylinder head has smaller ports than XL. Pistons, cams, rockers, valves, gaskets same as XL.. Crank has the larger main bearings common to 350s and later model 250s.

Too heavy and unresponsive for most people to do much in the way of trials with them, but the TL250 makes an outstanding trail bike, provided you're not in a hurry.

Cosmetics, notably side panels, impossible to find or very expensive. But as side panels are functionless, who cares?

BJ racing has most everything else.

Finally, remember what trials great Mick Andrews said (circa 1973) when asked about the latest crop of 125cc trials bikes: "I don't like mini-bikes."

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I have been told that the frame geometry of the 125 is more suited to Trials that the 250 .

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 On this point, I believe Mr Gray's information to be correct. 

I own both the TL250 (2) and TL125 (2).  One of each was purchased new by me off the showroom floor.  In my opinion the TL250 is the best looking single Honda ever produced. (Next favorite is my '72 XL250 then my GB500) But again I have to agree with Mr Gray in that Honda never meant for the TL250 to be a real trials bike. It's longer wheel base and steering head angle (not the trees) suit it more to a trail bike.  There's a good reason you see more TL125s on the loop.  Take a look at Sammy Miller's catalog and you'll see which of  TLs he's prouder of.

I think it's hard for dual sporters to focus on a single purpose bike and the answer to Jeeps question isn't all that easy to answer.  In my opinion if he wants to compete in trials on a Honda, the TL125 (more on that later) would be the better choice especially if he's just starting out. If he wants a very good looking bike that's also a fair trail bike, he might be happier with the 250.  He's probably noticed already that the TL125's suspension is a little too soft for a good trail bike, as would be any good trials bike.

Now if you want to use a TL125 for trials, it doesn't have to stay a "mini bike".  I've ridden for years with a friend who has managed to squeeze almost 200CCs into his TL125's frame and let me tell you with him on it, it will go places the average rider would never think about going on two wheels.  One of my 125s has a 150 kit in it along with all the current Sammy Miller goddies and I've put it up against most of the other vintage trialers and it'll hold it's own except for the more difficult sections.  You'll find that the more difficult a section is the more "punch" you'll need from the bike. Most novice riders never come up to places they need anymore "punch" than a stock TL125 can give them. They're money is better spent in fitting better rear shocks and a smaller CS sprocket (from stock) and slowing the bike down.  As their skills increase and the sections get harder they'll find they will need more "punch" out of the engine and there's plently of "off the shelf" setups out there to choose from.

Please keep in mind that this is all just my opinion.  I have met and ridden against a couple of very good trials riders on TL250s.  But they are the exception, not the rule.

For looks: TL250

For vintage trials: and you want a non British 4-stroke, hop up a TL125.

For looks and a fair handling trail bike: a properly set up TL250

hacksawed

After reading my post I realize that I was responding more to davidch's post than to Jeeps. 

Sorry for that, old age setting in.

Some of the differences I find in the two bikes are:

Less power from the 125 but I feel the 125s power is more trackable.

The 250 feels top heavy compaired to the 125.

I can turn the 125 sharper than the 250.

The 250's front wheel tends to  "wash out" on down hills and "plow" in sharp turns compared to the 125.

The 250 seems 'fatter' in the mid section.

There are more accesories/reproductions available for the 125.

So far, I've never found a hill I can climb with the 250 I can't climb with my 125.

I like the 125's seat better for the ride between sections and back to the truck.

Jeep, do you feel a big difference between the handling (not factoring in power) of your XL and your TL? 

Bikes seem to "fit" people differently.  Some will think the TL250  the easiest handling bike they have ever ridden, others will think it's a dog.  Your best bet is to find somebody to lend you a TL250 for the weekend and see how it "fits".  What part of the country do you live in?

All that said, you can never have too many bikes, period.

hacksawed

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After reading my post I realize that I was responding more to davidch's post than to Jeeps.Sorry for that, old age setting in.Some of the differences Ifind in the two bikes are:Less power from the 125 but I feel the 125s power is more trackable.The 250 feels top heavy compaired to the 125.I can turn the 125 sharper than the 250.The 250's front wheel tends to "wash out" on down hills and "plow" in sharp turns compared to the 125.The 250 seems 'fatter' in the mid section.There are moreaccesories/reproductions available for the 125.So far, I've never found a hill I can climb with the 250 I can't climb with my 125.I like the 125's seat better for the ride between sections and back to the truck.Jeep, do you feel a big difference between the handling (no

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Sorry I missed getting back to this post until now. Many, many thanks for all your responses.

I live in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area of Texas. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten my "new" XL250 running yet, so I have no comparisons of 125/250.

I bought the TL125 as a trail bike to ride with my kids, and because I've always been interested in trials and always wanted a trials bike. The 125 is fun to ride and I putt along OK on the trails. The suspension is really soft, so I have to take it very easy following the boys on their CRF. The 125 has incredibly low gearing and extremely tight steering. I like to ride around in tight trees, winding around them at slow speeds. And I like to ride up small, steep hills and down steep ditches. I practice balancing some, too. I stink at riding trials and I will probably never compete, so that is not an issue. I just like to tackle hills and ditches at slow speeds. I sometimes relate my little 125 to a mountain bike with an engine. It does feel like a mini-bike sometimes and I'm not a big guy.

I, too, like the look of the 250 and I'm thinking I would like to have one as a companion to my XL250. I see some beautiful TL250's on eBay sometimes. I was just wondering if it would be worth my while to own both, or either. And it sounds like the 250 might be what I should have gotten in the first place.

According to "the boss", Mrs. Jeep, I'll probably have to sell the 125 before I can get a 250.

The only TL that I have ever had the chance to ride was a TL125 that my nephew owned adn it had trouble getting out of its own way.  At least compared to my own 125 that probably put out close to 19hp more and weighed about 30lbs less. 

Swiss

With respect to suitable trials geometry, numbers trump opinions, no?

Cycle magazine, July 1973, test of TL125: wheelbase 50.5 inches, rake 28.5 degrees, trail 4.133 inches

Honda TL250 shop manual:  wheelbase 52.2 inches, rake 26.5 degrees, trail 3.4 inches

Honda TLR200 Reflex shop manual:   wheelbase 50.9 inches, rake 26.5 degrees, trail 3.4 inches

Cycle World road test of Kawasaki KT250:   wheelbase 51.8 inches, rake 26.5 degrees, trail 3.0 inches

Cycle magazine road test of Honda SL125:   wheelbase 49.252 inches, rake 30 degrees, trail 3.15 inches

Cycle magazine's March 1971 test of a Montesa Cota 247: "the fork head is a conservative 27 degreees, the fork shaft angle is 29."  Wheelbase is listed as 53 inches. 

In Sammy Miller's 1974 book "Clean to the Finish" he writes (page 24) "I feel very proud that they (Bultaco) are still using the same wheelbase, the same trail and overall dimensions which I specified (in 1965)....With the Bultaco steering almost the ultimate, their rivals (Montesa, Ossa) naturally followed the design trend..."

Later on the same page he writes "...the prototype Kawasaki ...handles very well."

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With respect to suitable trials geometry, numbers trump opinions, no?Cycle magazine, July 1973, test of TL125: wheelbase 50.5 inches, rake 28.5 degrees, trail 4.133 inchesHonda TL250 shop manual: wheelbase 52.2 inches, rake 26.5 degrees, trail 3.4 inchesHonda TLR200 Reflex shop manual: wheelbase 50.9 inches, rake 26.5 degrees, trail 3.4 inchesCycle World road test of Kawasaki KT250: wheelbase 51.8 inches, rake 26.5 degrees, trail 3.0 inchesCycle magazine road test of Honda SL125: wheelbase 49.252 inches, rake 30 degrees, trail 3.15 inchesCycle magazine's March 1971 test of a Montesa Cota 247: "the fork head is a conservative 27 degreees, the fork shaft angle is 29." Wheelbase is listed as 53 inches.In Sammy Miller's1974 book "Clean to the Finish"&nb

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Help me understand what you are saying?

Is a longer wheelbase, less angle on the steering and less trail, like on the TL250, BETTER for trials geometry? Why would that be?

Larry

I merely showed that a TL125's frame geometry is somewhere between a dual purpose bike (the SL125) and a number of contemporary genuine trials bikes. The TL250 is very close to or identical with those same trials bikes. I was unable to find the rake and trail for what might be called the paradigm of a 70's trials bike, the Bultaco Sherpa T. I did find in one book that a Sherpa's wheelbase as 52 inches.

Sammy Miller wrote that the Cota was very close to the Sherpa. Therefore, we can infer that a Cota's numbers, of which I provided the rake, are representative of trials geometry. Compare the Cota's numbers with a KT250, arguably the most competetive of the Japaneses trials bikes of that era. (Here come the letters from the TY250 fans...)

If the TL125 turns tighter, and I don't dispute that it does, that may be a function of wheelbase as much as anything else. Its lighter weight and lower center of gravity probably also contribute. If anyone can find another trials bike with 28.5 degrees of rake, I'd be very surprised. 26 (or so) seems typical.

For information on the effects of rake and trail on handling, do a google search, and don't dismiss bicycle-related sites. Sheldon Browne's bicycle web site is very informative on many 2-wheeled issues that are applicable to motorcycles.

davidch

Your 100% correct that opinions play into this...also, center of gravity, footpeg placement,  bar height, bar width, throttle response, weight to power ratio and supension all play into a trials bike's handling.  In my case I wrongly use the word "geometry"  as a cumulation of all of the above. 

Now, it's my opinion that you only had one "genuine" trials bike on your list, the Cota.

Look at your numbers for the Cota and tell us please , in your opinion.  What is it's degree of rake?

KT 250 "Most competive of the Japaneses trials bikes of that era"  I'm assuming you have numbers for this and it's not just an opinion? 

The Reflex?  a true "Contemporary  Genuine Trials Bike" in who's world?

I'm through with it.  hacksawed

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snip.....as far as "real trials bikes"...well, in 2003 I had the chance to watch a fellow ride a heavy weight "pre 65" BSA in the Modern Classic Expert class snip....

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Just for the record:  I think the bike Mr Gray is referring to is a BSA B44 which as a unit single would normally run in the premier LIGHTWEIGHT class in AHRMA trials.   But the main reason for my reply is, if we are talking about the same event/bike, the bike was hand built by Dick Mann himself.  

Mr Gray, if you happen to run into the old Mann at Mid-Ohio you might consider not mentioning that you consider his work (I'm guilty of paraphrasing here) just another bike. He has feelings too.

hacksawed

Here's a quick peek at some of Mr Mann's work.  

http://jfwalker.home.mindspring.com/BSA.htm

Ever wonder where Honda got the idea for the XL?

hacksawed

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And I suppose the rider's ability level had nothing to do with it either......the point I was trying to make was, an "Expert" class rider is an "Expert" class rider, no matter what they ride...

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Mr Gray,  of course a riders ability has a lot to do with his or her results.  But the statement that all trials bike are equal, in my opinion is just not true.  We'll also have to agree to disagree on your "no matter what they ride".

Case in point, my friend Harry Heilemann.  Harry started out riding a TL125 in AHRMA trials.  Harry is a talented rider and quickly moved up the ranks gaining national titles all the way.  That was until he moved into the expert class.  He struggled with the TL125 because even with all the mods he had done to it, it just wouldn't do what he needed for it to. ( I'm not saying somebody else couldn't, but Harry was having trouble with it.) So Harry got rid of the TL125 and purchased a VERY used TY250.  He took the Expert national title that same year. So at least in Harry's case your "no matter what they ride" was just not the case.

I have an 3 digit AHRMA member number and have been around trials most of my adult life.  Too many times I have seen riders struggle with a bike that just doesn't  "fit" them.  My suggestion to anybody that is interested in riding trials is to try and ride as many different bikes as they can and find one that they feel comfortable on. 

I am curious though Mr Gray, I was wondering just how many different trials bikes have you  ridden? 

hacksawed

This is a neat thread--after a simple question regarding whether a non competitive trials bike owner might or might not be satisfied with the trouble involved in selling a little one and then acquiring a larger one, this thread seems to have morphed into a reservoir dogs dialog with Mr. Gray, Mr. Mann etc--only missing Mr. Pink--but a lot of information has been contributed--that's always good-------------

I've got confused with all the issues and pursuant questions but I think (!!) what Murray is saying, (in my words) is that if trials were (and of course they are not) like the car race called IROC where experts that go fast on pavement are give a generic or standard car, each and every one the same down to the last bolt, they would adapt to the unfamiliar ride and cope easier than a group of novices---also, nonproductive traits from any experience gained with the different venues could be shed more quickly by the expert group---therefore, like IROC, it is a race between riders and not brands (if it were handled that way) and for someone not disciplined by the stress of competition it would seem to me to be that way.

so.............Mr jeephoto, you'll have to cope with more weight, and you'll have more  power to handle the steep stuff.  I still haven't ridden mine and doubt it will get finished in less than maybe two months--when it's done it will probably get sold for what we have in it (Brucifer owns half)--so check with me if you haven't found one by then--it will be ultra clean--not new but very new-like---)

I personally think you should have several sizes and both two strokes and four and several european types and a new gas-gas--and also one made from a CL160 like on the eurospares site--this is the only way you will feel whole and complete---trust me, I'm a doctor--

LOL thats great Bob...actually my plan is to own one of every production Trials bike ever made

I'm sorry...I NEVER meant to insinuate that ALL trials bikes are the same (that Scorpa 4stroke I rode sure didn't feel like my TL!), but Bob Ginder's TY250 sure doesn't resemble any production bike ever put out by Yamaha either...

that point being...you can make a "special" out of ANYTHING! Don't confuse a beginner with things He doesn't need to understand yet...let him get started and THEN let him learn what works best for HIM...personally I don't give a Rat's Butt in an aspirin bottle what ANYBODY rides...I ride trials because it's FUN for me, I don't care if I win or loose, I don't like for me or the bike to get hurt, so I ride conservatively, visit with my friends and cheer on my competition, then go home with a few bruises, a smile on my face and a bike that's still in one piece...

I don't know anybody who is getting paid to ride Vintage  

Murray

The title of this thread is TL250 vs TL125.  It is my opinion (YOMV) that the TL125 is the better trials bike of the two.  I base my opinion on the following:

1.   I have owned, ridden and competed on both bikes since the mid 70s.

2.   Honda produced the TL125 for more years than the TL250.

3.   A year or so after the TL250 came into the market there was a rush by aftermarket frame builders to supply a frame for the TL250 ( I'll let the frame geometry experts on the board explain why)

4.  You will be hard pressed to find more than a handfull of good trials riders competeing on TL250s in vintage observed trials.

All that said,  If you purchase a trials helmet, trials gloves, trials boots, wear your jersey of choice, hang out with people who DO care how well they do in vintage trials competiton, and you don't care how well you do in competition then I agree, it doesn't matter what you ride. 

hackasaw

So i had the opportunity to ride a 74 TL 125 (and a yzf 426 and an 01 DRZ 400) at a friend house i hadnt seen in a while.  Of course, i tried the TL first!!!  My first impression was "gutless wonder"- comparable to a geo metro or a kia sportage.  Until i got into 4th.  It actully would haul me around!! Geared WAY low, but i guess i should have expected that......  The shocks on this poor thing were non-existant but it still puttered up every trial i went on- mostly skinny windy uphill strewn with large sharp rocks.  Made for a rough ride but it was a lot of fun.  My only gripe with it was the shifter was so far from the peg you had to take your foot off the peg to reach the shifter.  Is that normal?  Anyways, at this point i would advsie any one getting off of a TL 125 and on to a YZ 426 F to take a minute and get used to the idea that you are about to ride a rocket, not the lawnmower you were just on.  I did, and it didnt help much!!!!  Anyways, long story short, i think i'm going to try and pick up the TL- he's not interested in it and would give it to me cheap!! 

P.S.- Maybe we should form some sort of an AA club for hondas- but then told hondas are an addiction i never want to give up!!!

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 My only gripe with it was the shifter was so far from the peg you had to take your foot off the peg to reach the shifter. Is that normal?

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Not really, the stock set up had a linked type shifter that brought the shift lever closer to the foot peg.  As with many parts on a 30 year old bike the linkge gets worn and the shifter gets replaced by a different type shifter (non linked).  A common mod for the TL125 is to use a folding shift lever off a smaller Honda single.  But that does move the lever away from the peg.

Keep in mind  that the TL125 is a trials bike. It is meant to be ridden in a section where the rider is graded by an observer.  The section is laid out so that the rider/bike is in the section for less than a minute. Typically the rider will shift into first and never shift gears in a section.   If the bike were being used in competetion, you'd probably be in fourth gear less than 10% of the time and then only to get to another section or back to the pits.

It's just my opinion (and as you well know by now your local trials experts do not agree with me on many points) the stock TL gearing is too HIGH for a novice trials rider.  Moving down a tooth or two on the countershaft sprocket is one of the best mods a novice trials rider can do to the bike. 

 It's been mentioned on this board many times that the stock TL125 lacks power.  I feel the same way but the engine has a lot of potential and there are aftermarket kits to improve it's preformance. Also keep in mind that most TL125s were used by trail riders/kids and probably have been flogged over the years.  Just like with most used 125's they are probably in need of a rebuild.

I realize that a lot of what I'm talking about has to do with competition only and nothing to do with the average trail (not trials) rider.  I think the average trail rider will be dissapointed with the TL125.  He/she will find it underpowered and it's suspension too soft.  But if you ever get the chance to see one being handled by a good trials rider, it can leave an impression.  One of our favorite tricks around here is to ride the bike over a picnic table, try that with your average trail/DS bike.

Anyway you look at it, if the price is right the TL is probably a good buy.  There's always a demand for them because there's not a lot of 4-stroke choices out there for vintage observed trials rider.  That is unless you want a Brit and it's going to leak as much oil as the 2-smokes burn.

hacksawed

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Other than the obvious engine size and cosmetics, what are the differences in the TL250 vs. the TL125?I like my little TL125; mostly because it is the first bike I've had in almost 20 years and my first trials bike. But I bought it just because it was local, I could afford it and I ALWAYS wanted a trials bike. However, as I learn more about the Honda trials bikes, I sure do like the TL250 and I would love a little more power. Furthermore, I always associated trials bikes with 250cc, like the Montesa's and Bultaco's.Would there be a logical reason to acquire a TL250, even though I have a TL125?Would I really see much difference?My 125 is a former competitor so it is not "pretty", but she runs and it is a blast to ride. I don't compete, so accuracy and performance is not that important to me. I just love plunking around the field and min

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I owned a new TL125 in 1976  ( 250 was never imported to UK   and whilst being a lot of fun was a pretty awful trials bike, 150cc and radically lowered gearing still didn't stop me moving to an Ossa.

Recently I built another TL with a 200cc six speed engine using parts from the TL, XL125s and XR200, together with longer shocks and it was much better but still not a patch on my 280cc TL250 (a rare to find bike over here).

With the longer shocks the little one turns a bit better but I use the bikes in easy route modern trials and need the power of the big bike.

At a recent Trials, I joked to a fellow that I wanted at least the same number of "cc's" as I weighed in pounds...

Murray 

Howdy all,

Many, many thanks for all the good comments on this topic. When I got back into motorcycles after some time off, I had alot of catching up to do on all the changes in motorcycles. My first shock was when I found out that Honda (my favorite motorcycle manufacturer) had, indeed, marketed trials bikes, and I had missed out on it!

When my TL125 came along, I jumped on it. I've lived with it for about a year-and-a-half, so I think I know it pretty well. All the comments about the TL125 as a competition-only, underpowered, not a good trail (note spelling of trail) bike, soft suspension and quick steering, are really true. When I bought it, I had visions of grandeur about competing in trials. In reality, all I really wanted was a trail bike to ride with my sons. If your aim is to compete in vintage trials on a four-stroke machine, the Honda TL125, properly set-up, is a very good choice.

I have never ridden, nor seen, a TL250 in person. In the book "Four Stroke Finale" the author calls the TL250, "The Best All Around". That recommendation, along with poster's comments in this thread, leads me to think the TL250 would be the best for my purposes of trail riding and casual "trials-type" riding.

My other motorcycle is a '75 XL250. Since I got it running, I prefer to ride it more than the TL125. In fact, I was riding both yesterday starting with the XL, and when I rode the TL, it felt like a bicycle to me. I can only assume the TL250 would be similar to the XL250 in weight, handling and suspension characteristics.

With that being said, I sold my TL125 to the guy who I bought it from; I am just waiting to deliver it. I still want a Honda trials bike, if for no other reason than for the nostalgic element of it. So, I will just be keeping my eyes out for a nice TL250 to accompany my XL250 in the garage. Maybe its just me, but it seems like all the TL250's I see for sale, are either in New England or the Pacific Northwest; a long way from Texas.

Thanks again for all your collective wisdom.

Larry

Reply to : Jeepphoto

Jeep,  I think you'll be happy using a TL250 as a trail bike.  I've said it before and I'll say it again I've always consider it the best looking offroad single Honda produced.

A couple of things to look for in your search,  try to find a bike that has good side panels and it wouldn't hurt if it already had the rear sprocket adapter.  Side panels and stock rear sprockets are pretty much impossible to find.  The rear sprocket adapter doesn't cost that much and is easy to install but it'd be nice if you didn't have that to deal with.  Sidepanels you could do without, but they do add to the look in my opinion.  Other than that, stiffen up the suspension and if and when you have the seat redone have them add some extra foam and you should be able to keep up with your boys all day.  And as with all Hondas,  with a little preventative maintenance it'll be as reliable as a hammer.

Good luck with your search, just don't get in too big of a hurry,  the right one will come along sooner or later.

 hacksawed

I just wanted to share this eBay auction with ya'll as it is a perfect example of using a TL250 as a Trail bike. The owner has restored this beauty to ride trails rather than focus on trials (note the different spelling). He added knobbies and a larger seat.

link:   eBay auction for TL250

I think I will remember this for when I get a TL250 (someday, when I hit the lottery).