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hugomez
  • Rank:Bronze Member
  • Posts:22
  • From:Netherlands

Date Posted:12/29/2011 9:30 AMCopy HTML

Hi all,
Until today I was convinced that the rear RIM from a TL250 was exactly the same as the once from the XL250 (until 1977)

The RIM size of XL250 is 2.15X18 but a friend is telling me that for TL250 should be 1.85X18, even if both rims can mount the same tire, for example 4.00x18

Even searching on Ebay I can see one seller that is selling the RIM for TL250 as 2.15X18, same sizes I think is right. But my friend still think the TL mount a thinner one. (1.85)

Checking in CMSNL I see the RIM of both bikes has different part number, but unfortunately it doesn't mention the specification of the sizes. This is strange, if would be the same RIM should have the same part number, right?

Checking the TL250 manual it doesn't mention it either, but I hope somewhere in Honda's manuals must exist this information.

I heart that WM1 correspond to 1,6, WM2 to 1,85 and WM3 to 2.15 in trial world

Can anybody help me to clarity this mystery?

Thank you very much in advance
woosh #1
  • Rank:Diamond Member
  • Posts:1568
  • From:Unknown

Re:TL250 rear rim. Do you know the size?

Date Posted:12/29/2011 8:13 PMCopy HTML

The part numbers can be different and the rim the same size. The mt250 and the cr250m had the same size rear rim and different part numbers. The cr250 rim is lighter as its not the same material but it is the same size. I dont know about the tl tho sorry.
davidch #2
  • Rank:Gold Member
  • Posts:199
  • From:Unknown

Re:TL250 rear rim. Do you know the size?

Date Posted:12/30/2011 12:03 AMCopy HTML

The TL250 came with a 2.15" width rim. That is the correct size for a 4.00 tire. This width is also known as WM3 (Wheel Measure)

However, the Kawasaki KT250, made about the same time as the Honda, came with a 1.85" rear rim. (known as a WM2). It, too, had a 4.00" width tire. The KT never suffered due to its narrower rim. I doubt any talent less than Sammy Miller's could tell the difference from the saddle, er, pegs.

Yamaha's TY250 of that era had a 2.15" rim. I installed one on a TL250. Not sure what Suzuki's RL-250 had.

One could argue that the narrower rim would give the bike a small weight savings, something the Honda definitely needed.

Were you to change to the narrower rim, you'd need 1.85" rim locks, too.

Yes 1.60" width is also known as WM1, and 1.40" is WM0. One the wider end, WM4 is not as well known but I've seen it in charts as 2.50" width.

The WM system was created, I believe, long, long ago on an island off the northwest coast of Europe. If you understand Whitworth and BSP threads, wire and shotgun gauges, flagons and hogsheads and demijohns, and can correctly pronounce Cholmondeley, it all makes perfect sense.
hugomez #3
  • Rank:Bronze Member
  • Posts:22
  • From:Netherlands

Re:TL250 rear rim. Do you know the size?

Date Posted:12/30/2011 11:41 AMCopy HTML

Thank you both for clarify my question.

Now I understand that the material that are made the rims can be different and that is why the part number is also different.

Davidch, thanks for confirm that the bike came with 2,15" rim.

My friend TL has a DID 1,85" mounted on his bike and that is why he think is the one that came from factory.

Now this rim is a bit broken and he want to replace it, that is why the all discussion.
Swiss #4
  • Rank:Diamond Member
  • Posts:1254
  • From:USA

Re:TL250 rear rim. Do you know the size?

Date Posted:12/30/2011 7:21 PMCopy HTML

To expand your education, rims that are even the same size and material do not have to be the same part number.  The holes that are drilled in the rims are drilled at different angles to match the direction/angle that the spoke comes from.  Different sized hubs can cause the spoke angle to change if they are larger or smaller.  Also there is a term called "Cross" that says how many spokes are crossed over on the same side of the wheel by each spoke.  Spoke Cross can be X2, X3, X4 or even more and they don't have to be the same on each side of the wheel.  The more spokes that each one crosses typically the larger the angle of the spoke from the hub and the stronger the wheel.  In the '70s it was popular to relace with Cross 4 spoke patterns for racing.  Factory wheels commonly come with Cross 2 or Cross 3.  With each Cross pattern and hub change the drilling angles for the rim changes so although they might be the same size/dimension rim it still might not work at all. 

It gets even more complicated with tapered hubs that have different diameters on each side, one small and the other large.  Hub width can also alter the drilled angle for the rim.  You need to get the right rim for the model that you are working on, or have someone with the know how do it for you.  Specialty wheel shops like Buchanan's custom drill rims and have patterns that they build from to get the hub/spokes/rims matched correctly.  Spoke sizes can also vary like 10ga., 9ga, and 8ga...  The smaller the number the thicker the spoke, and for your information, a 9ga. spoke from one wheel maker may NOT match the diameter or thread of another.  I just built up a custom wheel from one custom wheel manufacturer and asked him if his spokes would match some 9ga. nipples that I had from an older wheel.  He said probably not, their diameters and threads were custom for their wheels.  Typically if you do all Honda 9ga. spokes they would match, but that is not promising they would match Kawasaki of aftermarket parts.  Some do and some don't.

Wheels with spokes that have the nipples coming out of the rim and are seen to be at a mismatched angle to the spoke should be avoided, they have the wrong drill pattern in the rim and are an accident waiting to happen from broken spokes/wheels.

Swiss

hugomez #5
  • Rank:Bronze Member
  • Posts:22
  • From:Netherlands

Re:TL250 rear rim. Do you know the size?

Date Posted:01/01/2012 9:13 PMCopy HTML

Swiss, very interesting your useful explanation, thanks you very much for it.

I'll tell my friend that is very possible that a rear wheel of XL250 won't work for his TL250 and of course I will tell him to rear this topic.

Anyway yesterday I told with him again and he is convinced that TL250 mount 1.85" because both TL that he has mount this size.

He need one rim because one of these TL has is cracked, but I think he will have problem to find this 1.85" rim.

Swiss #6
  • Rank:Diamond Member
  • Posts:1254
  • From:USA

Re:TL250 rear rim. Do you know the size?

Date Posted:01/01/2012 10:06 PMCopy HTML

Well, maybe your friend has a couple of TL250 bikes that have 1.85x18 rims on them but the Factory rim size for the older TL250 bikes was 2.15x18.  Here is a link to a parts page that lists the rim size for a 1976 TL250, part number 14.

http://www.motosport.com/dirtbike/oem-parts/HONDA/1976/TL250/REAR-WHEEL

Swiss

davidch #7
  • Rank:Gold Member
  • Posts:199
  • From:Unknown

Re:TL250 rear rim. Do you know the size?

Date Posted:01/02/2012 2:32 AMCopy HTML

The TL250 uses CR125 spokes (360 center number) and its hub is the same - except that the CR hub is black - so a CR125 rim will fit a TL250. This is true only for the first 5 years of the CR125 (74 through 78) and all 3 years of the MR175, which also has a black hub.

The part number of that rim is 42701-360-701. The description doesn't state the width, but I know it's 1.85 because the specified rim locks (bead stoppers) are that width.

In fact, the entire hub/bearings/spokes/rim combination from a CR125 or an MR175 will bolt right in to a TL250. The brake plate, axles, axle spacers, and sprocket differ, however.

So, if you absolutely, positively have to have a 1.85" width rim on a TL250, lace in a rim from a CR or MR, or get an entire wheel, and live with a black hub.

*********************************

This fall, after harvest, one of the local motorcycle shops needed a new wheelwright. The only applicant was a recently unemployed worker - nobody needing any pollinating at this time of year - from a nearby apiary. The shop manager had to ask himself just one question before extending an offer: Can this bee true?

hugomez #8
  • Rank:Bronze Member
  • Posts:22
  • From:Netherlands

Re:TL250 rear rim. Do you know the size?

Date Posted:01/02/2012 9:55 AMCopy HTML

Thank you both for the information, unfortunately I found here the same situation that I have with my friend, from one side is sure that be bike came with 1.85" and from the other also is sure that came with 2.15", so at the end we are not 100% of anything :(
In the link that Swiss provide say 2.15", but david seem to know what he is talking about too.


Swiss #9
  • Rank:Diamond Member
  • Posts:1254
  • From:USA

Re:TL250 rear rim. Do you know the size?

Date Posted:01/02/2012 6:15 PMCopy HTML

He is welcome to use the 1.85x18 rim on his TL.  It will cause a typical 4.00x18 tire to tuck in a little more and give a rounder shape but it will probably work.  I found 2 out of 3 web sites that said that the stock 1975/1976 part was a 2.15x18 rim.  The third didn't list the rim because it wasn't available as a new OEM part from Honda.  As stated, the rear hub was basically a CR125 hub with no cush drive and the CR125 did use the 1.85x18 rim so that is an option for replacement.  The stock CR125 rim was a silver DID 36 hole rim and with the hubs the same it should swap right over to the TL250.  The 1.85x18 will be a little lighter than the 2.15x18 rim would be so that is nice if he wishes to keep weight down. 

Either way, it is his choice of what he wants to do.  Honda Parts says 2.15 and he says they have 1.85 on them.  I haven't heard from any of our USA Trials riders what their rims are on their bikes?  I checked several articles and none of them listed the rim sizes for front or rear on the TL250. 

Not a big problem, I rarely use stock parts for anything except where they are better than something else.  Wish him a Happy New Year and tell him to do it the way that he wants to!   

hugomez #10
  • Rank:Bronze Member
  • Posts:22
  • From:Netherlands

Re:TL250 rear rim. Do you know the size?

Date Posted:01/04/2012 2:00 PMCopy HTML

Thanks for all this information Swiss. I will tell him that in case he want desperate to mount a 1.85" on his TL try to find a one from CR125 Elsinore.

Thank you again :)
skorpioskorpio #11
  • Rank:Diamond Member
  • Posts:747
  • From:USA

Re:TL250 rear rim. Do you know the size?

Date Posted:01/04/2012 7:58 PMCopy HTML


Something to bear in mind is that a lot of modern 4.00 (or especially 4.10 low profile) tires will be out of spec on a 1.85 rim. I actually had 3.00x18 rims laced on my XL250 hubs for that reason. Narrower rims were not only to save weight but also to make the bikes more rut friendly by putting more buldge in the sidewall and making the rim more inboard and less likely to get damaged and harder to break the bead.


Go soothingly on the grease mud ... as there lies the skid demon! ...





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